I was just reading “The Right Nation“, a book about the rise of the American Right, and I came to a passage which said that American conservatives such as Ronald Reagan see the United States as a nation favored by God because of its democratic virtue, and those kinds of things, and that this is the reason why the US holds the position that it does. And supposedly, many Americans share this view.
I found this to be an alien way of understanding the world, and so I decided to take a look at my own world view, just to see what that was like. And I discovered that I’m more of a “Marxist” than I thought.
Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not longing for a time when the proletariat will overthrow their capitalist masters and seize control of the means of productions, and establish the dictatorship of the proletariat to let the bourgeois pigs stew in their own fat for a while. Because when push comes to shove, I kinda like capitalism. (As did, I suspect, Karl Marx himself — he does after all point out capitalism as the second highest form of social organization, if you don’t count socialism [and seriously, who does, these days?] — he just couldn’t stand to see all the injustice inherent in the system, and provided some, in my eyes, overly simplistic [or too complex, depending on how you see it] suggestions for how to improve it.) Sure, I want to reform capitalism and mess up the current laissez-faire paradigm in order to decrease the less positive effects of the system, but that’s about as far as it goes, and that’s more Eduard Bernstein than it is Marx.
No, where I am a Marxist is in that I am a Material Determinist; I believe that the material conditions of the world are the foundations and cause of (at least almost) all other social phenomena. The base, consisting of technology, ownership patterns, and such things, inevitably influences the rest of the world, or the superstructure, if you will. In this context, according to classical Marxism, democracy and liberalism becomes mere ideology — legal and social arrangements existing to legitimize and support the exploitative capitalist system. Religion, in the same way, takes on its famous opiate form, and becomes a mechanism intended to keep the exploited from demanding improvements here, now, by way of promising them a better life after their life is, effectively, over. (Naturally, this interpretation of religion is likely not applicable to all religions, but it does seem to fit the main three established organized religions Christianity (in most of its incarnations), Judaism, and Islam. I’m a little too out dim on Hinduism and Buddhism, as well as the rest of them, to say anything about those. Which is one of the reasons why I plan on taking a couple of years to study them, starting this autumn.)
So, in this sense, America is not special because it is favored by “God” (a concept I will get back to later, by the way), or any other deity, for that matter, but because it is formed by specific historical processes, and because it has an abundance of the most pivotal means of production of them all: Natural and other resources. In the same way, basically, that, say, Malawi is less prosperous because of its history as a colonial nation (to an wholly different extent than the US has a history as a colonial nation) and this fact’s effect on the country’s productive forces.
Anyhoo, this leads me on to the concept of a God, or any other kinds of supernatural creator entities. Because such an entity has no place within my world view. The idea that we are all created by a superior being — omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and the Ultimate Good Guy — is so alien to me, that I have problems envisioning what it must be like to believe in such a being. And if you enter into the equation that this entity is supposed to have any specific preferences as to how we live our lives, say, in regard to sexual habits (just to take a completely standard example), and that he regards some of his creations as inferior to others, just because they don’t conform to his will, is a ridiculous notion to me, especially when considering that he additionally gifted us with this thing the people who believe in it call “free will”. Because, if he (side note: I don’t really see God as having a gender, but religious people tend to call him “He”, and so I do that, too, because I don’t feel I have any right to make presumptions about the gender of an entity I don’t believe in — in short, few things annoy me more than confessed Atheists who refer to God as “She” ) uses the universe as a kind of experimental lab, where he uses human beings as rats in a maze, allowing people to make choices but then punishing them when their choices don’t please him, then even if I believed in him, he wouldn’t be worthy of my worship. I’d simply say, “It’s called noblesse oblige, motherfucker,” and go about my own business.
But if not from God, then from whence does morality come, you might ask. As did I, and I once again returned to J. S. Mill. Although indirectly. Because it struck me that many of the people who claim that God is the source of all morality are so self-righteous and so bigoted that they often hurt people who make lifestyle choices they don’t approve of. (Again, the issue of how religious people see homosexuals springs to mind. Is my subconscious trying to tell me something?
) And I thought, “Hmm, when people get hurt, that can’t be good, now can it?” There I had my starting point. If something harms another person, it is not a good thing. Naturally, this is a principle which, like all principles, must be approached pragmatically, because if it is exaggerated, or if “harm” is interpreted too broadly, everything becomes kinda bad. And then the principle becomes rather meaningless. But if you apply it reasonably, it should be a good rule of thumb as to what is good and what is bad, and I think.
In other words, the source of morality, in my world view, is not a god or other deity, but rather the reactions of other people. And myself, too, of course, but I’m pretty much in tune with Mill in his stance that anything an individual does that harms only him (yeah, Mill. People can harm Mill, but not anyone else
), he is fully entitled to do. (Okay, I have a moralist streak, too, no matter how liberal I am, and I also think that people have an obligation to help each other, and to save each other from themselves, if you know what I mean — it’s kind of a collective responsibility to support the individual responsibility.)
Phew. Good to get that out of my system; I couldn’t even concentrate on what I was doing. It’s probably flawed like Hell, and both inconsistent and illogical, but this is how I tick.
Another way in which I tick, by the way, is that I don’t proof read. Never. Not even on exams or term papers. Some of you probably knew this already, but if you didn’t, now you know why my blog is teeming with typos and grammatical errors. Also, I’m not very good at English grammar, really.

So, why, in your worldview, is something bad if it hurts other people? If you don’t believe in God or any form of religious Value of Life, it seems irrational imposing value on other people’s lives on expense of your own happyness. Just a question.
Liked your post. Your view on the traditional Christian concept of God, though somewhat more categorical than I’d phrase it, is very much like mine - and, if I remember my ExFac correctly, a lot like Zappfe’s, too.
26. February 2007 @ 16:08 ( Permalink )
Indeed. I prefer “Empathy”/”Egoism” to “Good”/”Evil”, really.
And the “bad if it hurts other people” stems from the knowledge that if all people are equal, your desires shouldn’t be put above the desires of other people, like “survive”, for example.
26. February 2007 @ 19:03 ( Permalink )
Stop helping him! ;P
Seriously, thuogh, you’re just moving the issue. From where, if he isn’t religious, stems this “knowledge that all people are equal”? Empirical evidence would suggest that people are very different, and with no higher-than-rational reason to credit them all with the Value of Life or something like that, you’re basically still just projecting value onto other all other beings of your species which there is no rational reason for you to do. This sounds rather religious to me. That you minimalize the amount of rites and you change the names of the rules from “Commandments” to “Human Rights” doesn’t automatically change the foundation of your values from based on belief to based on something else. You’re still believing in some kind of superhumanly defined values.
26. February 2007 @ 20:56 ( Permalink )
“So, why, in your worldview, is something bad if it hurts other people? If you don’t believe in God or any form of religious Value of Life, it seems irrational imposing value on other people’s lives on expense of your own happyness. Just a question.”
Good question.
Basically, this is a case of reasoning from the particular to the general. I don’t like being harmed, and since I and all other people in some way or other are products of the society we’re brought up in, I assume that other people don’t like being harmed, either. A stance supported by empirical evidence, I would say.
There’s also some humanist thoughts swirling around in my head, which I’ll try to put words to. In his semi-autobiography “Timequake”, the American author Kurt Vonnegut said that he’s a humanist. By this he meant that he saw it as his duty to serve the highest abstraction known to mankind (thus excluding any Gods, as we per today don’t have any way of knowing that they exist), i.e. society, the collective. In such a way of thinking, it seems to me, it would be very practical to reduce the number of unnecessary tensions, such as arise when people go around and harm each other.
As for the moving of the issue from God to society: This is totally acceptable to me, as we can have knowledge about society and what it benefits from, but not about the will of any hypothetical god-like entity. And for me, a society clearly benefits from providing every single one of its citizens with equal opportunities (i.e. rights), as this facilitates the utilisation of their potential to the most effective degree. To use yet another obvious field to examplify: If you give everyone basic schooling and the opportunities to get more advanced education later if they have the required abilities, you make sure that smart people aren’t set to doing jobs inferior to their intellectual capacities, just because they’re excluded from the proper education by the lack of such rights. (Say, if they didn’t belong to the right caste, or if they were too poor to afford the education.)
I’m not really sure if that answers your question at all, or if it’s even logically coherent. I’m not very good at seeing those kinds of connections, not even in my own thought and writings. If my attempted answer isn’t good enough, though, let me know, and I’ll try again. It’s always nice to test my brain on other people, especially people as intelligent as you two.
“though somewhat more categorical than I’d phrase it”
Again, this is purely lack of skill on my part. I would most likely have phrased myself less categorical, too, if I only knew how. But it’s so much easier to just write things all simple and unreflective, especially when it’s the first time you put words to something.
26. February 2007 @ 23:44 ( Permalink )
Your reply is coherent enough, I suppose. I think I found some large cracks without looking too closely, but it’s late, so if you already covered this, I’m sorry:
You do in a way explain this by your replacing God with Society in your basis of belief (Marxist indeed, eh?), but I still feel like asking you to elaborate on how this:
“I don’t like being harmed, and since I and all other people in some way or other are products of the society we’re brought up in, I assume that other people don’t like being harmed, either. A stance supported by empirical evidence, I would say.”
explains your claiming other people’s lives have the same value asd your own. The cow doesn’t like getting killed, I support those doing so by eating it’s meat anyway. You can know it hurts someone your doing something, true, but I don’t see why you should respect that if you otherwise wouldn’t profit on it when you don’t have any form of higher order telling you that it’s the right thing to do. Your society-model only goes so far to explain this, as you undoubtedly, if you didn’t care about other people at all, could lead a very happy and full (and rich) life at the expense of society.
Furthermore, your statement about all individuals contributing to their fullest and society opening for this and such all nice and dandy until you raise the question of mentally handicapped etc., in which case this as a justification for society and valuing human life suddenly implies you should eradicate such individuals for not being able to conform to your model of why society is the optimal abstract for you as an individual to live by. You don’t profit in any empirical way from this - unless it makes you happy or something like that, which again would seem to be based on some kind of irrational belief in a higher value of life, the basis of which couldn’t be society as you here explained it.
27. February 2007 @ 02:17 ( Permalink )
Ugh, I just read you in a way that implied that eradicating mentally handicapped people made you happy — and for some reason, I suspect that isn’t quite what you said.
So, in other words, I’ll get back to you on this tomorrow.
27. February 2007 @ 02:23 ( Permalink )
Sounds okay, ’cause I’m not awake enough to read carefully through what you reply at this point anyway. I wasn’t earlier, either, as mentioned, so my reply might be a bit… hasty. But, oh, well. We can’t all be Treebeards.
27. February 2007 @ 02:34 ( Permalink )
Hum hum.
27. February 2007 @ 12:28 ( Permalink )
Is that so? Is that REALLY so?
27. February 2007 @ 14:14 ( Permalink )
Well, the Society benefits from killing the mentally handicapped because It won’t have to provide them with their basic needs any more, thus freeing a (marginal, but still) part of the workforce to do productive work.
However, doing so would in some cases result in anger and resentment from those closest to the mentally handicapped, so you might not gain on it at all (but that depends completely on your cultural heritage. We, who as just demonstrated, have an irrational belief in the value of human life, will react much more harshly to the killing of a handicapped son than, say, our greatgreatgrandfathers).
27. February 2007 @ 16:55 ( Permalink )
So your argument would be that the mentally handicapped’s lives are not of value in themselves, but that they pose less of a burden on society if taken care of?
Interesting - and as far as I can see, valid - argument that leads you to a fitting result, but I’d suspect that’s not at all what Terje feels about it, and thus it’s an explanation that fits, but a wrong one nonetheless.
Your comment on relatives is on the side of the issue - personal bonds can explain caring about relatives and friends and the like, and thus imposing value on their lives in your own view. Doing this with people you haven’t met - or don’t like - on the other hand, makes no sense given the logical framing Terje put up in his post, which is thus the foundation for my asking the questions I’ve asked.
27. February 2007 @ 17:00 ( Permalink )
Yeah, it’s my explanation, not Terje’s. If you believe in Society over the Individual, then it should follow that you believe in disposing of those who cannot contribute to Society.
And my little comment about personal bonds indicated that those closest to the handicapped might react in a way that would harm the Society more than it would gain from killing the handicapped. Because that’s the only (thin) excuse Society have for not doing it.
27. February 2007 @ 17:08 ( Permalink )
Your second paragraph: yes, I got that, was that not clear in my reply?
Sorry I can’t elaborate, I’m running late as is. Later, peeps.
27. February 2007 @ 17:38 ( Permalink )
Let me try to start again. I thought of a different line of reasoning, and seeing as I’ve never really thought this through in an even halfway decent manner before (not that this is very decent), I wanna see where these thoughts take me.
First of all, if we were to take a look at the basic human nature and the fundamental capabilities of human beings, I believe it would be baloney to claim that all people are equal. Because we grow up in different environments, and to a lesser extent because our ancestors have different genetic features (if we assume that the people who claim that, say, intelligence is genetically determined, actually have a point; something I have never really seen any objective research on), all people are undeniably different, and some people are inevitably better than others.
They can be physically stronger, and thus better, seeing as they can beat the people who claim otherwise into a bloody pulp. Or they can be more cunning, and outwit others, thus proving themselves to be better.
In a perspective such as this one, survival is the ulitmate test of one’s capabilities. But this way of seeing things forgets one thing: Humans aren’t cats. We’re dogs. We’re not normally lonely hunters, stalking the crags alone (okay Terje, no more NwN for you the next couple of days…), at least not as a rule. Immensely more often, we are dogs, or wolves, if you will. We hunt and lives in hierarchical packs; we watch each others’ backs, and we tear each others’ throats out if we see an opening.
Ouch. Bad metaphor; it brought me right back to where I started. And why not? Because humans are like this. We cooperate when we benefit from that, and stab each other in the back when that is a reasonable course of action. However, within most “packs”, or societies (I will try to distance myself from metaphor; they’re rarely as accurate as one might think), norms slowly emerge, norms which can in some ways resemble the balance of power that at times exist between states. Most obvious of these is that actions that threaten the existance of the society, or even just the internal order in it (an indirect threat to its existance, stricktly speaking), become something to which the rest of the society responds with negative sanctions. You kill Otto because you then have a chance to mate with his wife, or to gain access to his food, and society might react badly, by e.g. killing you to make an example.
Umm, I think I kinda forgot where I was going with all this. But it was nowhere interesting, I suspect, and that might be just as well, because:
I just remembered something. I might have lost track somewhere during my initial post, because I never really tried to come up with a universal moral code — and to be honest, even the idea that I would try such as thing is ridiculous, when much brighter people than me have tried and failed before. What I was supposed to try to do, quite simply, was to explain from where my moral system came.
And that is quite simply from what I basically outlined above: I don’t like being harmed, my experience tells me that other people doesn’t like to be harmed, I don’t like harming people — therefore, in my book, harming people is bad. I’m simply too much of a softie, if you will, to go around harming people just because it might benefit me. (Not that I’m refusing the idea that I could do such a thing, I am after all human. And these are the kinds of things people do.)
When it comes to you question of “From where, if he isn’t religious, stems this “knowledge that all people are equal”?”, I think I might finally have an answer for you.
And that answer is that I don’t know that all people are equal. But neither do I know that people aren’t equal. Sure, I know that people are different, but I think that to say that people are different is the same as them not being equal, is a rather dramatic conclusion. I believe that people can be both different and equal, and since I don’t really have a way of knowing that people are equal or not, I perfer to think that we’re all of equal worth.
Sure, this might not be entirely logic, but it is reasonable, I think. Because the only thing that stricktly speaking separates me from a mentally handicapped person, is luck. And I don’t think that the question of equality, superiority and inferiority should be decided by such an arbitrary factor.
Sigh. I’ve probably left holes you could drive Giles’ Citröen through, but I’m hungry, and I should go get something to eat.
27. February 2007 @ 18:26 ( Permalink )
“But neither do I know that people aren’t equal.” Hm, what does this mean, then: “(…)all people are undeniably different, and some people are inevitably better than others”?
And if you mean “Equal as humans, as living creatures”, then you’re back at the irrational belief-station. Sorry, but as far as I can see you can’t win this without admitting you’re irrational. Which, imho, we all are to some lesser extent. It’s what makes us human.
27. February 2007 @ 19:42 ( Permalink )
Is it so hard to see? Sure enough, I guess all three of you have touched it, but I want to say a word as well. (Note: The word coming after these is normaly the longest word ever.)
People is not equal. Mainly because humans decide if they are or not. I, for one, find all of you three more worth than some silly “fjortis” spaming around. And I am sure you do to. Also, I am quite sure that you sometimes find family more important than friend or such. Therefore, some are more worth than others.
27. February 2007 @ 20:32 ( Permalink )
I have no problems admitting I’m a highly irrational person.
I’ll say more later, but I was suddenly gripped by the urge to create an Elven Rogue in NwN.
Laterz.
( ^ Hommage to all fourteen-year-olds who’re just spamming around. Respect!)
27. February 2007 @ 21:10 ( Permalink )
(Completely off-topic, but is NwN worth it? Because my copy of Medieval II Total War, in which I have, ahem, coherced most of Central Europe to join the German Federacy (mostly peaceful means. … I mean, both Venice, Poland and Denmark attacked me first. And Belgium and Milan were pitiful anyways, and would have been conquered by someone else if I hadn’t been — ahem) have decided to die on me, and I have an almost unused copy of NwN2 sitting on my shelf. Should I fall for the temptation to play it?)
And Sauegjeteren, we all judge people through our own highly subjective eyes. No way around that, unfortunately. However, if you try to be somewhat objective, things get complicated. Say if we think of a hypothetical situation where you find person A more “worth” than person B and yourself, but person A think that (s)he is inferior to person B, who is worth more? Person A, whom you hold highest, or person B, whom A holds highest?
27. February 2007 @ 21:32 ( Permalink )
Terje, the problem with your whole ting isn’t that you’re trying to make a universal moral code, or that you’re trying to tell us what your own moral code is. You never tried the former and in your original post you did the latter. The problem is we’re asking why this is your moral code, and you’re not telling us. You tell us you don’t like harming other people, so you don’t. Fine. But why don’t you like harming other people? What’s the rationale for this? If you don’t have one, then you ARE committing to some higher principle than rational thought, namely “what feels right to me”. It’s the same thing with your *choosing* to consider people of equal worth. That’s all fine and dandy, that you do, what I’m asking is *why*? If there’s no higher power to tell you this is the good choice, why do you make it? ‘Cause materialistically, it seems like you’d be able to live a much better life if you could range other people’s worth in good conscience.
Sauegjeteren: “People is not equal”
Exactly. There are people who know grammar, and there are people who, well… ;P
27. February 2007 @ 21:41 ( Permalink )
Who make their point anyway.
27. February 2007 @ 22:27 ( Permalink )
There are? Cool! So glad to hear of people overcoming their impairments and functioning in society!
Hope I’ll one day get to see one! ^^
(I’m being mean, but it’s too fun to stop)
27. February 2007 @ 23:38 ( Permalink )
Good luck on that one.
(I expected worse)
27. February 2007 @ 23:57 ( Permalink )
“(Completely off-topic, but is NwN worth it? Because my copy of Medieval II Total War, in which I have, ahem, coherced most of Central Europe to join the German Federacy (mostly peaceful means. … I mean, both Venice, Poland and Denmark attacked me first. And Belgium and Milan were pitiful anyways, and would have been conquered by someone else if I hadn’t been — ahem) have decided to die on me, and I have an almost unused copy of NwN2 sitting on my shelf. Should I fall for the temptation to play it?)”
If it’s anywhere near as good as #1 (the one I’m playing), I’d suggest you go for it. And from what I’ve heard, it’s better. (I wouldn’t have any first-hand knowledge of that, though, as I am in the habit of waiting for games to come out in cheap “Classics” packs. For example, NwN was two years old when I bought it, Diablo II was almost three when I bought that, and so on.)
“That’s all fine and dandy, that you do, what I’m asking is *why*? If there’s no higher power to tell you this is the good choice, why do you make it?”
As of this minute, I’m not really sure. exactly why. Although technically, of course, humans are all just sacks of meat, and thus of equal value. When I stop trying to be all noble and stuff, I can come up with reasons like that, but if I was to say that’s the reason why I think all people are equal, I’d be lying. Or at least witholding parts of the truth.
Because sure, we’re all physically the same, even though some are fat, some are skinny, some are tall and some are short. We all have an equal capacity to feel (although how strongly we choose to care about this capacity is less equally distributed), we all feel pain, and most of us aren’t very fond of pain.
I mean, I at least know that I don’t like being harmed. And like I’ve said a couple of thousands of times before, …
Ah, fuck it. I keep mixing up the “why I don’t like to hurt others” part and the “why I think people are equal” bit. And although I think they’re closely related, they’re not the same. I think I need to think this over for a while longer.
Anyway, thanks for pointing out the flaws and holes in my way of thinking. Socratean ideal of exchange of ideas, yay!
Anyways, off to breakfast. (Yeah, I do know that it’s nearly 4 in the afternoon.)
28. February 2007 @ 15:46 ( Permalink )
Although technically, of course, humans are all just sacks of meat, and thus of equal value.
May I make a point? Thanks.
You know, meat have a value, and it is not equal from animal to animal. Not even from individ to individ. I should know. Meat is valued by the amount of fat in the meat, how much it is of it, and so on.
And if you see the meat in the living form, like muscles, it is also very different, in value. Sure enough, meat is meat (no, it is not), but (never mind about the but, I am arguing with myself here) what one do with the meat is the important thing. You’re a socialist? Okay then, that meatsack can do that much for society, and that meatsack can do less for the society. Who serves society the most? And who do we then rank as the best/highest?
(Sure, Loki, pick away.)
28. February 2007 @ 18:23 ( Permalink )
The sacks-of-meat-argument is invalid, Terje, ’cause you’re using an objective criteria for judging worth. That makes no sense, as you don’t have an objective standard to judge by, having ruled out God and similar entities and untouchable rules. Removing those things leave you only with subjective criteria for judging worth, and my question still stands: How on Earth is it rational for you to apply the same value to people you don’t know as you do to yourself if you do not belive in some form of Higher Order or other?
28. February 2007 @ 20:00 ( Permalink )
The sacks-of-meat-argument is invalid because we’re all made up of atoms, and as so a rock weighing the same as me would be worth the same as me if we’re judging by the value of our individual ingredients.
And you could say that people have worth because they all experience a subjective reality, couldn’t you? Because all humans have an individual reality, even though they may be different in all other aspects.
28. February 2007 @ 20:32 ( Permalink )
Yes, you could do that, but there would be no rational REASON for doing so. Your own life doesn’t improve as a result in any way, and without some higher order forcing this attitude upon you, having it is irrational, even if you do say they MIGHT have the same value as you do, it’s irrational living as though they do when there’s no moral code forced upon you to respect their value.
28. February 2007 @ 20:52 ( Permalink )
Well. There would be a rational reason for putting down a standard saying that all people are worth one reality. There would of course be no reason of acknowledging that all people are worth as much, but isn’t that somewhat, well, hypocritical? After all, acknowledging that 4 cm is shorter than 5 cm doesn’t improve your life in any way either, it’s just a fact. And if you say that “Amount of realities” is a, well, nearly possible way of measuring human life, and all humans are worth one reality, then it follows that all humans are worth as much, even though you personally don’t benefit from it.
28. February 2007 @ 21:00 ( Permalink )
But it’s meaningless. If you’re given the choice between saving two strangers and yourself, if you choose the two strangers, and you’ve no higher moral code, it’s meaningless. Why would you do that? There’s no rational reason for doing that without a moral code imposed by some higher order, and thus there’s no rational reason for claiming their lives are as valuable as yours to you.
28. February 2007 @ 21:36 ( Permalink )
Human rational?
28. February 2007 @ 21:59 ( Permalink )
…two random words and a question mark don’t make a question. What are you trying to ask?
(oh, and,
9 × 1 + 9 = 81
YOU FAILED THE CHALLENGE!
*back, refresh for new math-puzzle*
0 x 3 + 0 = 0
YOU FAILED THE CHALLENGE!
Gods, this is annoying.)
28. February 2007 @ 22:39 ( Permalink )
Er, sorry, the first one there I obviously got wrong ’cause of a typo… XD
28. February 2007 @ 22:40 ( Permalink )
Sigh. We try again (damned test-question):
Why help other people, indeed… If we (as you just did) acknowledge the objective measurement of human life in amount of realities, two realities benefit from you sacrificing yourself, while only one reality benefit from you walking away. However, I know that this will not convince you, after all, you believe, irrationally, that you are worth more than the others, and that your reality thus is worth more than theirs. However, in their realities they are worth more to themselves than you are worth to them, so using that argument only shows that you do not uphold your own standards of objectivity. After all, as I said in my first comment: Not good and evil, but empathy and egoism.
(And yeah, the measurement-system is flawed, but you said that I could use it, so I did.)
28. February 2007 @ 22:44 ( Permalink )
That’s more or less my point, I think. Their realities - if they even exist, something I can’t ever know for sure - aren’t mine, and there is no higher order telling me to respect them. So if I *do* respect them, it’s a conscious, free choice on my part, and it needs rationale. The claim that they could have a similar view of the world as I have brings on empathy, sure, but it doesn’t make the empathy nor actions taken on grounds of the empathy rational.
28. February 2007 @ 23:00 ( Permalink )
I mean, believing they think of the world as you do doesn’t place you in a position where you’re of equal value to them, just in a position where you know they probably think they’re as valuable - or more so - than you are, and that you can understand why. This is no rationale for basing your actions on them having the same value as you do, that is selflessness/compassion with someone who has not done nor seems to ever will do anything for you for no concrete productive reason on your account, and it’s not constructive unless you accept some kind of higher moral rewards which you’ve still not managed to produce without involving some form of religious convictino.
28. February 2007 @ 23:05 ( Permalink )
Lets try again, and be friends. Well, at least try again.
“Is” people ever rational?
28. February 2007 @ 23:05 ( Permalink )
I’m not sure how it’s relevant if they are or aren’t, the point is to see what they claim to rationally base their choices on when asked. I’m interested in subconscious and conscious motives (sp?), not objective reasons. Psychology bores me.
1. March 2007 @ 00:13 ( Permalink )
Obiously.
1. March 2007 @ 00:16 ( Permalink )
Loki: … Is only egoism rational for you?
1. March 2007 @ 17:34 ( Permalink )
Not if there’s an higher order imposing values on us, no. If there’s not, then yes. Obviously. There is no rational reason for anything else. Absolutely everything you do is selfishly motivated, even stuff that hurts you, like sacrificing your life for something - that’s YOUR wish, so it’s a selfish act, your priority being something other than your life doesn’t change it from being YOUR priority.
So yes. In the most basic sense, egoism is the only form of rational thought in a world without an higher moral order.
1. March 2007 @ 18:31 ( Permalink )
And trying to overcome the ego is hopeless no matter what, so there is no reason in even trying?
1. March 2007 @ 20:06 ( Permalink )
Depends on how you define “the ego”. Yes, it’s possible to convince yourself other stuff than yourself is the most important in your life, and if you get something back from this, it’s viable for being called rational, or at least you can make a case for it being so. But what can you possibly get back from doing something for someone who will never meet you, never repay you, and never know you did something for him or her, and how can you possibly call doing something like that a rational action if there’s no higher moral code imposed on you which defines the action as good? Without good and evil, there becomes, as you say, selfishness and selflessness, gain and loss. Without good and evil, selflessness and loss is inherently stupid, because there is no positive in them in and of themselves, as they can no longer do “good” - there is no “good” ’cause there’s no-one to define it but the individual, and to the individual, “good” is “what’s good for ME”. You can’t get around that rationally, or at least, I can’t see how you can. Explain it to me?
1. March 2007 @ 20:18 ( Permalink )
“Without good and evil, selflessness and loss is inherently stupid, because there is no positive in them in and of themselves, as they can no longer do “good” - there is no “good” ’cause there’s no-one to define it but the individual, and to the individual, “good” is “what’s good for ME”.”
How do you manage to completely ignore the fact that doing something for other people from which they would benefit would have created “Something that’s good for ME”, only that the person who benefited from it would be “ME”, and not yourself? Because for me, that’s the very definition of selflessness.
1. March 2007 @ 20:27 ( Permalink )
That didn’t make sense, and even if it had, I’m suspecting we’re not getting anywhere, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make, you never seem to quite contradict me and yet you seem sure we’re disagreeing about something, so we’ll finish this on MSN.
1. March 2007 @ 20:47 ( Permalink )